First off, I was raised as an MK in Peru. I love that fact about my life and it’s something that I would never, ever change if given the opportunity to do so and grow up in some other way, say for instance, with a ton of money. Secondly, I live and work in Papua New Guinea now, and have done for for 5 years. So I like to think that I have a healthy appreciation for non-US culture. I love living and working overseas, and I know that a lot of people are not equipped to live and work the way I have been called to do.
In high school I went through a phase where I hated the US and wanted nothing to do with it. Coming back to the US after graduation, I began to realise that while there are bad things in the US, and bad things about the US, (show the country on Earth that does NOT have bad points), there is also a great deal of good in this country that I can solidly agree with. I eventually realised that my understanding of the US while I was in high school was based primarily on Time and Newsweek magazines, which are NOT the place to go if you are a conservative Christian looking for good news about the USA!
By now you are wondering where I am going with this. I’ll cut to the chase: can anyone tell me, not based on what they have heard in the news, but from personal experience, what is so bad about White America? And what makes any segment of American society any better or worse than any other? I am genuinely curious about this.
-- jungle biker (Email) - 30 November '06 - 21:25

I love avocados. And Guacamole (sp?) and Mexican food is among the best on the planst, I’d say.
-- jungle biker (Email) - 30 November '06 - 21:26

Personal Experience??!!
I only shape my views based upon pundits featured on major cable news outlets.
That,.. and the running political commentary of the guy next to me at work who has cable news on all stinking day.
-- bread - 30 November '06 - 22:33

Andrew – here’s a comment i left on Keith’s blog about racism. It’s kind of long – it would make a good weblog entry. So here it is:

I’ve been ruminating this one for a while… and if i don’t leave some kind of comment, however disjointed, i never will.

I attended a Institute for Healing Racism a few years ago, and it did help open my eyes to the kinds of crap that happens in this country. My group was pretty good, and one of the girls i met there (black) became one of my really good friends. And at that was the early foundation of our friendship – our common approach to our differences. (Which, by the way, proves i’m not racist. I’ve got a black friend!!! LOL)

But i do think a great deal of the class was minimally useful – my two main problems with it were:

a) no real dialog, just individuals sharing and then moving on

b) there wasn’t any convincing reason for us to value all races. We’re all biologically related… we’re all humans… that’s about it. At a Christian agency, i would expect the pervasive, indelible image of God in each of us would be a pivotal point. Then they could point out that the more different people we know are, the more different kinds of God’s image we become familiar with, therefore diversity becomes helpful to our quest to know God better.

Um… okay, so what really REALLY bothers me about racism is that it’s so entangled in CULTURE. As Image bearers, we’re all equally valuable, regardless of skin color, gender, age, abilities, talents, mental impairment or anything at all. But cultures are NOT equally valuable. Culture can be dysfunctional, unhealthy, self destructive, evil. We can choose any number of yardsticks to measure the value of this or that culture; humanitarian good, economic success, cultural richness… but the yardstick we should use is how closely does a culture match the Kingdom of God as described by Jesus.

That being said, we can look at American culture and see how incredibly diseased it is. We’ve got rampant intolerance from Fundamental Evangelicals, unsustainable consumerism from mostly everyone, misogyny and violence from urban hip-hop culture… we’re in a great deal of trouble from all fronts.

Is the answer AA or something like it? No. Legislative solutions to cultural problems are doomed to failure. We can simultaneously fool ourselves into thinking we’re doing something Good, and abuse the new systems we’ve put into place. But it’s better than nothing…

I think the true church, as a social and cultural force for good and Godliness, needs to take a stand on this issue. We understand why consumerism is bad, i think we’re committed to social justice, we can speak about violence and hatred in clear terms. Every one of us can (must!) advance the Kingdom of God wherever we can, bringing love and peace into every facet of culture we encounter.

Probably spray painting peace signs on Escalades with 28” spinners is a good place to start.
-- juanito (Email) (URL) - 30 November '06 - 23:53

i’d like to comment. another bad thing about white america is this. like any majority would do and does do, we keep the power and “privelage” (i know that’s a racial buzz word but couldn’t think of a better term) in the hands of those in charge. Whitey! Some examples: 1. “According to the Bible – which whitey hand picked and translated- a woman’s role is this…” 2. Tax breaks for the rich- mostly whitey- and don’t give me “trickle down” bullshit. 3. Wal-Mart- owned by whitey who exploits the whole world so that Americans, and now many other countries can have cheaper mac-and cheese. I think Christ speaks out against this type of system and it’s our job (i shouldn’t say ‘our’ I should say ‘my’” I mean MY job to speak out against this. Oh, and also Whitey’s wars are fought by the economically disadvantaged who are ussually not Whitey. And economically disadvantaged areas – primarily inner city- don’t get the same amount of funds as suburban schools and I don’t think I need to point out which races go where.
-- christian (Email) - 01 December '06 - 23:54

Christian, I mean/meant no disrespect. I think that you are wrong on a lot of these points, though, and that a careful analysis of the areas you mention would prove it. Unfortunately, I think that the gap between the truth and the perception is ever widening thanks to the media.
And Juanito, I’d like to respectfully disagree that AA is a step in the right direction. AA has effectively told minorities for many years that they are unable to advance or succeed in America without in effect, short circuiting the system. Furthermore, AA ends up increasing racism among economically disadvantaged whites who see their tax dollars going to give a minority person a leg up when they feel that they can’t afford to feed their kids or pay their bills. The truth of the matter is that those who want to succeed in America can and do. There is nobody out there in power saying “thus far and no further, Minority Man.” There are too many successful people out there of “minority” backgrounds for me to believe that.
Can’t you guys see that affirmative action is only exacerbating the problem by drumming the idea that “advancement with help is impossible for you” into people’s heads?
Look, here’s what I believe the bottom line is: Those who want to succeed in America can and do. Ask any successful person of any race in America and they will probably all tell you the same thing about how hard they had to work to get to where they are today. Even the white ones have to work for it.
I just think it’s foolish to blame things on a person’s race,(which to my mind is true racism), rather than emphasising personal responsibility for everyone. You want to succeed in life in America? Great! But it is up to YOU to do so. Why should anyone expect anyone else to do it for them?
I am totally willing to be proved wrong on any of this. I’m not here to pick a fight, I’m just hoping to get us all thinking. So if you are shouting atyour monitor right now, I invite you to calm down and reply later. This being Juanito’s blog, if he would rather we took this discussion elsewhere I am happy to do so.
I sincerely hope that I am not being offensive to my friends here. But please let me know if I am.
-- jungle biker (Email) - 02 December '06 - 11:03

I wrote a response in today’s post. :)
-- juanito (Email) (URL) - 02 December '06 - 23:14

no offense taken sir. i hope you didn’t read me being sarcastic to you directly. I actually have more issue with the 2nd post you made about “pull your boot-strap” mentality. not and “angry” response, but rather a “this will be a good discussion” response/feeling. Also, rarely do I get upset about discussion unless a person is demeaning or poh-poohing someone. (By the way, if i do that, let me know). I just reread my post and read “bullshit” which may be interprated as an angry word. Sorry. I was mostly being sarcastic.
My thoughts on a few of your comments: “careful analysis of the areas you mention would prove it”- I don’t think you mean here that you have done the “real research” and that any opposing view just needs to look closer, but maybe you do in which case you can correct me. I realize that most of my post was pretty sarcastic and meant to be a bit humorous, but the principles I believe are true. Throughout history, human nature has acted out the power thing. Any majority or at least the group of people or person in power sets things up in his (or her but not ussually) favor. Unfortunately this has also happened in our rich tradition of Christianity (and Judaism). In America’s (I mean United States when I say America though it’s not really “America”) case things are no different. I think that saying that America is a level playing field or that all people have the same oppotunities is having a hard time seeing things from others perspectives. The reason I was able to get a semi-good education in the public school and then in a liberal arts college is because of the prosperity of my extended family. My grandparents came from the Netherlands and were able to bust their butts as farmers in order to tame the land and acquire wealth and property. This wealth (and I think work ethic) was passed on down through the generations until Iwas able to pick a school I could get in to and screw around and not go to class. However, when most African Americans arrived they didn’t have many choices. Even when they were given bits of freedom, they were still limited including a good education. African Americans today, therefor do not have the same opportunities as me. Sure, things are closer to being level than ever before in the U.S., but often times still don’t have choices of schools or the ability to pull themselves up. Things must be made morelevel so that African Americans can get the same opps.
Here is a point we agree on- “ AA has effectively told minorities for many years that they are unable to advance or succeed in America without in effect, short circuiting the system”. This is mostly true. Occasionally, a minority is able to buck the system and beat it, but the system effectively sets things up in the favor of White America as I said in the last paragraph. This is interesting to me- Not sure if this even applies to this discussion: When the Irish came over, they were also treated poorly and marginalized, but being white, were able to lose the accent and fit in so they weren’t as easily identified. For obvious reasons, this can’t happen for most minorities.
We must remember that the U.S. has legislated racism for most of it’s life. The sixties in many ways was a greta landmark for African Americans as well as for the U.S. We are still changing and trying to make up for the history of our country and grandparents.
Here is a bad analogy: Why can’t the Mexican oplympic team just buck up and beat the U.S. in basketball? Well, the country isn’t set up to allow young people the same chances to learn to play basketball in school or in their culture in general. If a larger more powerful country would help them to set up a system in which the basketball mindset was engrained in it’s people, then maybe 50 or 100 years down the road, Mexico would be a basketball superpower. But probably not because they are really poor and still won’t have the same opps as the U.S. Makes perfect sense doesn’t it?

So my bottom line is I have every opportunity to work myself into a great position (meaning financial) but the 5 year old who lives next door to me won’t have those opps because his Dad sells crack and his mom smokes it and works in a low paying factory. His Dad beats his mom and people come and go to buy drugs and party. True, he could… could make it, but the odds are stacked against him.
-- christian (Email) - 03 December '06 - 00:44

ok, but in the case of your neighbor, are you suggesting that Dad is somehow forced by society to sell crack and that these same societal forces make Mom smoke it? See, I am becoming more and more convinced that personal responsibility is being overlooked here. Did I not have as much opportunity as the next guy to get involved in drugs? Indeed I did! I had the funds and I had the opportunities. Why didn’t my mother turn out to be an alcoholic like her father and her brothers? I’d say it was because she chose not to. Yes, life is hard. It’s a fallen world filled with sinful people who are in pain and who choose to hurt others. But I still believe that the majority of those who want to can rise above adversity. Look at your own forbears—they came to the US from the Netherlands, (just like mine, by the way), settled in farm country, (again, like mine) and proceeded, (like mine) to dig a living out of the ground. They chose to do so. Nothing was handed to them on a silver platter. They went where the opportunities were and they took advantage of them.
In my family’s case, all of my opa’s 7 kids ended up doing quite well for themselves financially, except one—one of my aunts, has decided that she would rather not rise above the adversity in her life. She had the same opportunities as her siblings, but chose not to take advantage of them and now lives in abject squalor in GR. Her siblings have each tried repeatedly and independantly to help her get on her feet, but she chooses to waste those opportunities as well. I don’t think that her attitude is uncommon.
Now I feel like I need to make it clear that I do NOT believe that all memebers of minority races are like my aunt! No way! I still contend that any person of any race in America can rise above adversity. Come to Florida and look at all the Latinos driving in and out of the Wal-Mart parking lot in big new SUV’s. I don’t have a nice new car—but if I wanted one, if I chose to give up the life God has called me to as a missionary, and if I decided to go out and work hard and make good decisions, I could have a new house, I could have a new car, etc., etc. (Actually these things have limited appeal to me, but once again,that is due to my own choices and has nothing to do with oppression). I maintain that anybody else in America could as well. If a latino or a African American walked into a new car dealer with the means to buy a new SUV or a new car, do you really believe that there is some sort of system that would deny him the opportunity to buy one? If a dealer treated him like crap, (which some may do, but that goes both ways and is not limited to whites treating minorites like crap and is, once again, a personal decision and not the result of some vast conspiracy), then that minority SUV buyer will just go to another dealer until he finds one who will sell him what he wants.
And your basketball analogy falls apart when you apply it to soccer. I think soccer pretty much proves that minorities are free to dominate if they choose to do so, and by the way, last time I looked, it seems like most major league sports in the USA are dominated by minorities, except maybe baseball. And motorsports generally tend to be whites dominated sports, but once again, I don’t think that has anything to do with anybody keeping minorities out of motorsports. There are certainly “underpriviledged” white people in motorsports—people who have chosen to sacrifice everything else in pursuit of their dream of being a shopping cart racer, or what have you.
Can you see what I am trying to say here? There is no conspiracy. People of all races can and do succeed. People of all races can and do make stupid decisions that lead to failure. I am glad that you had the opportunity to go to school because of your family’s prosperity. I chose not to go to complete college because I didn’t want to go into debt, pure and simple, and because I reckoned that my years of experience in my field, (motorcycle and small engine mechanic), would be enough to get me into the business I wanted to be involved in, (and it was, but my getting into Wycliffe was not without it’s challenges that I had to overcome). I knew what I wanted and I pursued it until I had it. If there had been more obstacles in my path, I would have done what I needed to to overcome them as well.
In my mind, it’s more about personal responsibilty and choosing to rise above adversity than it is about race. Some have greater obstacles to overcome, this is true. But that is true no matter what race you come from. There are huge numbers of poor white folks out there, many of whom choose to rise above adversity, (like in any other race) and many of whom choose the path of less resistance, (like any other race). I resent the idea that minority races are somehow inferior and have no choice but to become drug dealers, pimps, and hookers. It’s just not true.
-- jungle biker (Email) - 03 December '06 - 17:01

Well said junglebiker. So my question is this: If we are all created in God’s image and all have the same opportunities and it boils down to freedom to choose, then why do minorities statistically make so many bad choices that keep them in poverty? Are they not as smart as us white folks? (I know you don’t think that but was just saying it to try to make my point but it was probably pretty inflammatory. Sorry). Why can’t/won’t minorities just pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Your grandparents did it and so did mine. This problem is easy when we look at it from a micro level because we can say “Hey! work harder! You have the same opportunity as me! Work harder like a good Calvinist!” But statistically the problem is much more difficult. On a macro level it just doesn’t make sense does it? Why would minorities not do what they need to do to get ahead? I’ve got to think it’s 1 of 2 things: 1. “they” (i try to never use this phrase) don’t want to “get ahead or 2. “they” don’t have an equal chance to get ahead.
It can’t be 1 can it? What do you think?

By the way, nobody commented on my lactating man comments. Am I just so socially unaware that I can’t see how innapropriate and awkward this is or is it that I’m just so juvenile that these type comments along with fart and poop comments should be left in the youth ministry realm?
-- christian (Email) - 04 December '06 - 05:39

oh jeez, Christian – i KNOW men can lactate. I heard about it on some radio show once, but it’s just a silly point. It did make me laugh, so i think you accomplished your goal.

But… Andrew – i agree, there’s no national conspiracy, no secret nationwide systematic oppression of minorities keeping them from getting ahead. It’s a cultural problem, and while culture is kind of like a system, it’s too organic to be dealt with like the system of legislation which was done away with back in the sixties. The Jim Crow laws and segregation. Now that there’s no legislative system keeping minorities from getting ahead, many people in America think that the problem’s been solved. And now, hey, why don’t those Black people just put their noses to the grindstones and get something better for themselves? This attitude is totally widespread. Some of my most dear relatives firmly believe this (as Andrew seems to do – but i know he’s willing to dialog) and they are totally committed to being non racist. Whether they succeed or not….

Okay, i defy you – DEFY you, i say – to go to your dearest Black friend and say “So, how do you like living in this country now that there’s no racism?” After you get out of the hospital, you might wonder what it is that’s sending such a strong message to minorities in this country that there still is, after all, so much racism.

It’s cultural. Cultures are too organic and chaotic to be dealt with the way we dealt with systematic racism. Also, culture is too nebulous to be be actually called “racist”, there’s no entity to point the finger at. However, cultural groups tend to contain ethnically similar (or at least similar looking) groups of people. Where similar physical features are lacking, members of cultural groups will choose to look alike, clothing, haircuts, mannerisms. If i showed you pictures of the white kids i work with, you could easily point out the “Gangsta” and the “Redneck” and the “Church boy”.

Culture does predispose us to certain lifestyles. Take Andrew – he’s a biker looking guy with long hair, a beard, and a leather jacket. He’s a lot like the Lone Biker of the Apocalypse. He chooses to look, and to some extent act, like other members of the biker culture and as such, would expect to be treated a certain way. Cops might search him for weed or concealed weapons. I think Andrew would be okay with this, not least because he’s got no drugs or guns on him (most of the time, and if he does carry a gun, it’s properly licensed, i’m sure.)

Okay, in a slight contrast, look at me. I might look hard to classify but as soon as you walk in my house and hear the whirr of the three desktop computers we have running all the time and see our laptop and the gadgets around our house, you could assume that i’m a nerd or geek. I go to LAN parties. I am part of geek culture. As such, you would expect me to act a certain way – be guilty of certain crimes. You might examine my hard drive for, um, say, illegally downloaded games or softwares or mp3’s or movies… and since this is a public forum, i’m not gonna say what you’d find (no pr0n, at least).

Now let’s close our eyes and imagine an airport setting. Visualize an Arab wearing paramilitary clothing and has a darkly angry expression on his face. Picture sinister bulges under his khaki vest and, say! he’s holding an electronic device in his hand. How will we react? Is he a regular fellow like the valise dragging businesspeople who are casting him suspicious glances?

Finally let me tell you about one of my coworkers i saw at a gas station a while ago – let’s call him Steve. He’s Black. It was about 11:15 at night, and he was standing outside sipping coffee. While i was still in the store, i heard the cashier saying into the phone “he’s hanging around outside right now” and didn’t think anything of it. So when i exited the store i stopped to chat for a moment. Steve kept talking even when i jingled my keys with an unmistakable air of “wellp, i better get going” so i stuck around for a minute. Then a couple cop cars pulled up and they came over to talk to us. Steve is a lanky guy, wearing tight-ish jeans and a heather gray ARMY sweatshirt. He had nicely trimmed hair. On that night i was wearing baggy, ripped jeans, a loose fitting long sleeved t-shirt and i had dreadlocks. So who were the cops coming over to talk to? Who so scared the checkout lady that she called the cops? Not me, it was Steve. I kind of told the cops off for that, and they were really apologetic, explaining that there were some robberies in the neighborhood… and then Steve’s dad pulled up to give him a ride home. With cops talking to him.

Okay, which example is racism, and which examples are not? Cultural profiling, for lack of a better term, applies well to Andrew, me, the angry Arab. Racism applies to my friend Steve. Should Andrew, i, and our angry Arab be upset when we’re treated a certain way because of our appearance? No. Will the three of us have the course of our lives painted out in broad strokes because of the cultures we associate with? Yes… Andrew will accumulate a garage full of greasy parts, i’ll have my home warmed by working processors and spinning hard drives, and Angry Arab Guy will feel eyes on him at the metal detector.

Should Steve be upset when he’s treated a certain way because of his appearance? Yes. Will his life be painted in broad strokes? Maybe yes? In a general way, because he’s Black and regardless of his culture (he’s about as mainstream as it gets, as far as i know) there will be gentle but insidious pressures to go a certain way.

Important point already made by Christian: Andrew and i and Angry Arab can change our appearance to fit in with social norms better. Steve, on the other hand, was already doing what he could to fit in with social norms, and because of his SKIN COLOR was being treated worse.

Steve, all Black people, minorities, and we who try to be advocates for the repressed, need to be ANGRY about this – and we need to direct our anger not at Whitey who (through some unspecified mechanism) supposedly represses minorities. We need to be angry where we find racism, but we also need to rage against the cultures which are so destructive, and because the cultures tend to parallel ethnicity, tarnish the society wide reputation of minorities.

Steve should be angry at white cashier lady, but he should also be angry at those Black criminal jerks who were going around robbing gas stations.
-- juanito (Email) (URL) - 04 December '06 - 11:08

oh man, that was long.
-- juanito (Email) (URL) - 04 December '06 - 11:08

I agree—the cashier lady was in the wrong to some extent. The black criminals are the ones who were REALLY in the wrong and are going around making life difficult for other guys who might look vaguely like them.
Yeah, I have been searched for drugs and weapons. Never had any drugs to be found. Never had any ILLEGAL weapons to be found, hehehe. And you’re right, I am aware that my appearance does cause people to wonder how many .45’s I might have concealed about my person. And at airports I automatically “assume the position” when I go through a metal detector—feet apart, arms out, head up, let them do their thorough search. It’s no problem, I am aware of how tough their jobs must be, and I wouldn’t trade places with them for anything!
And finally, I am aware that racism exists, but primarily, (I almost said exclusively), on a cultural level. and yeah, these posts are getting super long. I am pretty much willing to let this die for now while my mind processes these things.
-- jungle biker (Email) - 04 December '06 - 11:29

oh crap. you guys have no idea how pleased i was with my last post. i couldn’t wait to tell my wife how smart i was when i got home from work.

“This problem is easy when we look at it from a micro level because we can say “Hey! work harder! You have the same opportunity as me! Work harder like a good Calvinist!” But statistically the problem is much more difficult. On a macro level it just doesn’t make sense does it? Why would minorities not do what they need to do to get ahead? “

Isn’t that clever? I thought about it all night last night and thought i had solved the problem of racism and then nothing… no comments. I guess i need to bring my message to the streets.

also, juanito, why didn’t you include me in on your story. which guy am i? i was hoping for “needy guy who needs to be included in everything to feel validated” but would settle for “body builder with a quick wit and fast brain”.
-- christian (Email) - 05 December '06 - 00:40

Sorry Christian, I did notice your clever argument. I thought the question was rhetorical. Also, the reasons why people don’t try to succeed are legion. Keep thinking about your question. I am done for now.
-- jungle biker (Email) - 05 December '06 - 18:47